"History's verdict is all we have left.  And when tomorrow calls today into account, some of us want to say we stood up.  We called out.  We were not silent."
--Leonard Pitts, Jr., "Gestures of Conscience Bring Solace," Baltimore Sun, March 19, 2006

HOW TO BELIEVE SIX IMPOSSIBLE THINGS BEFORE BREAKFAST

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This entry was posted on 4/29/2010 9:19 AM and is filed under uncategorized.



Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said: "one can't believe impossible things."

"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."


(Through the Looking Glass, Chapter 5)
  from the website: "Lenny's Alice in Wonderland Quotes":


Recently, a series of back-and-forths I had with conservative friends and family in various forums, either e-mail or social network comment sections, left me profoundly depressed, and not just depressed, but positively mystified, because each "debate," if that is what you want to call it, for lack of a better word, followed the same, eerie pattern:

First, they would accuse me of being a "far-left liberal," and all that entailed, right off the bat, hand's down, whether they knew me well or not.  If they were family--and some were--they knew full well that I voted as a registered Independent for many years and had, in fact, cast votes for Ronald Reagan (twice) and George H.W. Bush (once), and that I was from a military family whose son had fought in a war (twice) and who supported the president's Afghanistan policy--NONE of which endears me WITH the "far-left liberal" community.

None of that mattered.

I was still "far-left liberal."

Second, they would accuse me of being "close-minded" and "unwilling to consider other viewpoints."

Why?

Well, because I wouldn't watch Bill O'Reilly or Glenn Beck.

Again, and again.  And again.  AND AGAIN I listed for them eight or ten CONSERVATIVE news columnists that I read DAILY, from George Will to David Brooks to Kathleen Parker to Russ Douthat to Peggy Noonan to Michael Gerson and on and on--but it was as if there was some kind of psychic BLANK SPACE in that portion of the comment or the e-mail.

They would come back and say things like, "You should watch Glenn Beck because he really makes sense."

And I'd say, "So did John Nash, the brilliant mathematician who was portrayed in the movie, "A Beautiful Mind,"--to whom Glenn Beck has compared himself, I might add--and who, we all know, was CRAZY."

I'd mention, again, the conservatives I read--even throw in somebody like Charles Krauthammer just to see what they'd say. 

Nothing.

Back to, "You're close-minded because you won't consider other viewpoints than the far-left news shows you watch."

So, I'd seize on that, and I'd say, "I don't WATCH news programming.  I don't watch Rachel Maddow or Keith Olbermann or Chris Matthews, either!"  (at least, not very often)  "I READ!  I read the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal, the L.A. Times, the London Financial Times, the U.K. Guardian--Jesus!  It's not like I read the New York Times, which I know you consider liberal, and then run over to Daily Kos to get my opinion validated and then steam off and spew out an angry blog!"

Then they would get mad and say, "Oh well, I guess you think I'm STUPID because I don't read all the stuff YOU read, just because I don't have TIME..."

And I'd say, "Not at all.  All I'm saying is BRANCH OUT and not trust just ONE NEWS SOURCE because you are only getting ONE SLANT to your news!"

And they would insist that FOX news was "fair and balanced," not like the "far-left liberal news" that they were certain I was watching.

These arguments were so one-sided and impossible that I started to feel like Alice through the Looking Glass--I could not reply or respond to them.

In one instance, a family member sent a viral e-mail showing a photograph of the president and first lady holding their LEFT hands over their chests as some sort of subversive salute to the flag ON THE WHITE HOUSE LAWN and demanded I explain THAT by God.

Of course, Snopes.com did so immediately, showing that the photo had been photo-shop "flipped," and that the Marine in the background was wearing his uniform ribbons on the wrong side of his chest, as proof.

STILL, they were suspicious of Snopes.com!  They kept pushing and pushing, until I just started to delete the e-mails altogether because you cannot reason with this kind of psychic blindness, and I was really starting to despair...

Until I heard about "EPISTEMIC CLOSURE."

It was originally defined by Julian Sanchez back in March in a brilliant blogpost: "Frum, Cocktail Parties, and the Threat of Doubt":

"One of the more striking features of the contemporary conservative movement is the extent to which it has been moving toward epistemic closure. Reality is defined by a multimedia array of interconnected and cross promoting conservative blogs, radio programs, magazines, and of course, Fox News. Whatever conflicts with that reality can be dismissed out of hand because it comes from the liberal media, and is therefore ipso facto not to be trusted. (How do you know they’re liberal? Well, they disagree with the conservative media!)"

Now, to be perfectly clear on what Sanchez meant, I actually looked up the word "epistemic" in my handy online dictionary.  It is from the Greek, and means:

"of or pertaining to knowledge or the conditions for acquiring it"

Ah-HA.

(Back in my hard-core feminism days, this would be what Gloria Steinem would refer to as a "click!" moment.)

But Sanchez doesn't just point out the danger of closing the loop on knowledge to a limited, approved number of sources--he goes on to point out how "apostates"--those insiders who dare to criticize either one of those sources or one of the approved conclusions therein--get shunned and kicked out of the inner circle, attacked, diminished in stature, so that they are no longer on the "approved" list of sources and therefore, no longer to be included in the approved loop, which has just gotten smaller:

"Think of the complete panic China’s rulers feel about any breaks in their Internet firewall: The more successfully external sources of information have been excluded to date, the more unpredictable the effects of a breach become. Internal criticism is then especially problematic, because it threatens the hermetic seal. It’s not just that any particular criticism might have to be taken seriously coming from a fellow conservative. Rather, it’s that anything that breaks down the tacit equivalence between “critic of conservatives and “wicked liberal smear artist” undermines the effectiveness of the entire information filter.  If disagreement is not in itself evidence of malign intent or moral degeneracy, people start feeling an obligation to engage it sincerely—maybe even when it comes from the New York Times. And there is nothing more potentially fatal to the momentum of an insurgency fueled by anger than a conversation. A more intellectually secure conservatism would welcome this, because it wouldn’t need to define itself primarily in terms of its rejection of an alien enemy."

Ahhhh...

Sanchez is not only getting closer, but he hit the nail on the head, according to one of the more famous of those "apostates," David Frum, who dared speak out and criticize the company line and was summarily told "OFF WITH HIS HEAD!"

He, quite literally, did travel to China on business, and upon his return to the United States, had this wry observation to make, in his blogpost, "Groupthink at the National Review" (which we all know, fired him over one uncomfortable position he took with which they disagreed):

"How wonderful to return to a free country, I thought as I stepped off the plane from Beijing at Washington Dulles. No more censorship, no more official lies, no more kowtowing to high officials who gained power by their mindless repetition of party dogma…

"Then alas I opened my browser and read the dump-on-Manzi comments on NRO’s The Corner. Manzi had deviated from the One Correct Way of Mark Levin Thought, and all his former colleagues had been summoned together to Denounce and Struggle Against Him.

"Not one stood up to be counted in Manzi’s defense, not even colleagues whom Manzi might have had reason to regard as close personal friends...

"What makes this episode all the more remarkable is that Manzi is actually a member of NR’s board of trustees – i.e., somebody who might claim a little more scope to speak his mind. But even for trustees, there are limits, and Manzi crossed them"

I dunno what-all was going on here, but I gather a National Review trustee dared to contradict a popular but particularly boneheaded entertainment right-wing talk-radio host on global warming.

"OFF WITH HIS HEAD!"

And he's not the only one.

Soon after David Frum's head rolled, Bruce Bartlett posted a blog, "David Frum and the Closing of the Conservative Mind," in which he detailed not only his own head-chopping experience but a very real example of epistemic closure in the conservative loop:

"As some readers of this blog may know, I was fired by a right wing think tank called the National Center for Policy Analysis in 2005 for writing a book critical of George W. Bush's policies, especially his support for Medicare Part D. In the years since, I have lost a great many friends and been shunned by conservative society in Washington, DC.

"Now the same thing has happened to David Frum, who has been fired by the American Enterprise Institute... Since, he is no longer affiliated with AEI, I feel free to say publicly something he told me in private a few months ago. He asked if I had noticed any comments by AEI "scholars" on the subject of health care reform. I said no and he said that was because they had been ordered not to speak to the media because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.

"It saddened me to hear this. I have always hoped that my experience was unique. But now I see that I was just the first to suffer from a closing of the conservative mind. Rigid conformity is being enforced, no dissent is allowed, and the conservative brain will slowly shrivel into dementia if it hasn't already."


Yeah, I believe I'd say to the good Mr. Bartlett:  Too late.

In response to Julian Sanchez's original piece on epistemic closure, Jonathan Chait wrote a response in The New Republic, "The Right and Epistemic Closure," in which he faces conservative arguments that liberals do much the same thing when they get their news from Huffington Post and Talking Points Memo and MSNBC and Rachel Maddow or Jon Stewart, but adds a cogent and necessary point:

"The difference is that liberals do not see these outlets as replacements for the news. In the conservative worldview, mainstream media is not just flawed but fatally tainted by deep ideological hostility. Millions of conservatives believe the only sources of credible news are Fox News, Rush Limbaugh and the like -- even a figure like Clarence Thomas once told an interviewer that his sole sources of news are Limbaugh and the American Spectator. Liberals may seek out ideologically friendly sources to augment their information intake, but the phenomenon of total epistemic closure that Sanchez describes is almost entirely limited to the right."

THIS, then goes right at the heart of the arguments I was having with right-wing family and friends, and why I thought I was talking to them--metaphorically--face to face, only to find, when I reached out, that my hand was smashing into a plate-glass window.  They were not hearing me.  To them, ALL NEWS EVERYWHERE FROM ANY SOURCE was suspect--one 80-year old family member even commented that my college education amounted to "liberal propaganda"--and ONLY Fox news, and to some, those maddening viral e-mails sent to them by fellow right-wingers, could be trusted as accurate.

Sanchez's column provoked a storm of to-be-expected defensiveness from the right, and the arguments were tiresome and predictable, falling pretty much into the: LEFT-WINGERS DO IT TOO NYAH-NYAH argument.

Still, in his devastating follow-up post, "Epistemic Closure, Technology, and the End of Distance,"  Sanchez levels those arguments with the simple example of young Constance McMillan, from small-town Fulton, Mississippi, who wanted to take her lesbian girlfriend to the senior prom and wear a tuxedo.  When the high school canceled the prom rather than permit it, the ACLU took up her case, and in the end, she was permitted her prom, but it was only her and a few sympathetic students, including the disabled and some minorities, who attended.  Parents threw a prom for the "real" students, and set up a website to attack little Constance for ruining their fun by simply trying to be herself.

Sanchez points out that, when the website became public knowledge and links went out, it was FLOODED with positive reinforcement for Constance from ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, which shocked and SHUT UP the mean girls and boys of Fulton, Mississippi and their bigoted parents.

Sanchez's point is that this increasingly narrow conservative loop mistakenly thinks that it represents a large segment of the American population's thought, when in reality, it is often shocked to learn that it does not.

On April 9th, Jonathan Chait examines the phenomenon more closely in his post, "The Great Epistemic Debate," and describes the two schools of thought, liberal and conservative, as best he can, namely, that conservatism is monolithic, whereas liberals are not as prone to groupthink.

But my favorite description of this difference came from a conservative columnist who just won the Pulitzer Prize, Kathleen Parker.  She writes for the Washington Post, and first came to my attention when, during the campaign, she dared to say that Sarah Palin was not qualified even to be vice-president, much less president, and was flooded with some 12,000 e-mails--mostly from right-wingers--cursing her and many, sending death-threats.

At that time, she wrote, "Dixie Chicks, I hear ya."

So I laughed when she was describing the health care summit President Obama called between Democratic and Republican senators, and she said that, when they walked into the room the Republicans were all carrying EXACTLY the same briefing book, period, and they were all carrying it in the same way, cover out, so the television cameras could show it.

The Democrats, she said, came in carrying all kinds of stuff--each one, something different.

So, from the get-go, we are a different mind-set.  We Dems value individualism.  They SAY they value it, but in truth, they fear it, because whenever it shows up in their own Party, they say, "OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!"

By the time two weeks had passed from Mr. Sanchez's first posting, the conservative blogosphere was in an uproar, and who better to take 'em on than Andrew Sullivan? 

In a slice-and-dice piece entitled, "The Closing of the Conservative Mind, Ctd.,"  the former conservative-turned-Obama supporter takes on right-wing critic Jonah Goldberg, who'd become outright obsessed with the whole epistemic closure thing, which he was certain that, whereas okay yeah maybe it DID exist it was also on the liberal side nyah nyah and all the worst problems facing this country had been caused by them anyway, to which Sullivan replied:

"Ah, yes. In the middle of the Bush administration's extreme extension of executive power and secrecy in the war against Jihadist terror, as the GOP was spending like inebriated seamen on pork, entitlements and defense, as Wall Street was gambling in a manner that wild-eyed liberals like Richard Posner and Alan Greenspan have conceded was recklessly irrational, as the Republicans embraced successful nation-building in Iraq and Afghanistan as the sine qua non of American national security ... Mr Goldberg decided that the real crisis was "liberal fascism."

"To do so in that context is simply surreal. But inordinately successful in the ideological-industrial complex that is enriching so many pundits and killing conservatism as a serious attempt to govern the world as it is. It's successful because the untethered bromides of the utopian right are far easier to market than the awful choices and hard compromises that the US now has to grapple with. But contemporary "conservatives" - a lethal blend of denial, distraction and derangement - are not interested in hard choices. They are interested in an alternative reality, sustained by exactly the epistemic closure Goldberg wants - ah, the circle closes - to distract from."

DENIAL.  DISTRACTION.  DERANGEMENT.

I liked those words so much that I almost put them in my title, but even Andrew Sullivan couldn't top Alice in Wonderland to describe what's going on here.

In the end, Sullivan referred us all to an outstanding post that is long but well worth your time and trouble to read, by Conor Friedersdorf, called, "Weaseling out of Things is Important to Learn.  It's What Separates Us from the Animals...Except the Weasel."

In this post, he dissects and destroys every single argument out there that the conservatives are putting forth to deny, distract, and crazy-up the argument that they are not indulging in epistemic closure through closed information loops and knowledge control, and through swift beheading of apostates.

Like all thoughtful conservatives I have read in the past couple of years, he expresses growing alarm at the very real problems facing our country and our planet and the dearth of serious ideas being put forth by conservatives to deal with them.  As he points out, during the campaign, every Democratic candidate had some form of health care reform to discuss at length in debates and Republicans had nothing except some vague Romneycare at the most, and at the least, constant harrangues of Hillarycare.

And like most thoughtful conservatives, he took a dig at Sarah Palin, because they all know that the kind of cutesty sound-bites that she's so good at putting together may be popular to people like the ones arguing with me in e-mails and comment sections but, at the highest levels of government, where these desperate problems need powerful and careful solutions, they don't get the job done, and should she or someone like her actually garner enough votes to get elected, the country will be in very serious trouble.

I've tried to explain to my deaf and blind right-wing family and friends that painting all supporters of Obama with a broad "far-left liberal" brush is counter-productive and not even true.  My son is an Independent, a former Marine and Iraq war vet; my husband a Vietnam combat vet and moderate Republican; my daughter, a Hollywood actress.  They all supported Barack Obama, but you can't slap the same brush across all three of them--it's insulting. 

They are individuals with their own life experiences and own intelligent analysis of how current events affect their lives--they are NOT "Kool-Aid drinkers."

Makes no difference to the Glenn Beck followers and Sarah Palin fans.  They are not listening.  Socialists, all!

It is ironic to me that as much as the right-wing tried to portray Obama supporters as blank-eyed members of some sort of feverish cult, the truth is that cults actually work by RESTRICTING access to information--that is the FIRST thing they do to ensure loyalty of their followers.  They work by trying to separate you from your family and friends by making them seem "other," or somehow "suspect," and to be feared.

The right-wing media machine works 24-7 to portray Obama as a subversive non-American who is working to undermine the constitution of the United States and deny "real" Americans their liberty.  He is to be feared; his policies are deliberate attempts to weaken America and make us vulnerable to our enemies.

Anyone who disagrees with that is portrayed as somehow "unAmerican," or at least caught up in the cult of worship of him as some kind of messiah--yet another character (anti-Christ?)--to be feared or at least deeply suspected.

And any source of information that says otherwise is immediately tainted and stained with the LIBERAL label--NOT TO BE TRUSTED OR EVEN BELIEVED.  Any poll, any statistic, any research finding, unless it comes from an approved conservative "think-tank."

If someone within the approved loop dares to speak out, they are "shunned" and excommunicated from the inner circle--banished to the dreaded LIBERAL MEDIA circuit, to be mocked, derided, and scorned--not to mention, FIRED, their livelihoods (and family health insurance) CUT OFF.

Which is quite a threat, don't you think?

This is epistemic closure.

And, I might add, it's what cults do.

And this is why we can't get into arguments with our conservative family and friends, period.  They start from a place of utter contempt for our beliefs--and even, by extension, to some extent--us.

There is nothing we can say that they will respect, in spite of their protestations that they want to hear what we have to say because they are willing to listen to facts and figures that might change their minds.

In the upcoming months, my friends, my advice is this:  Confine your remarks to Independents, disgruntled Dems thinking of not voting at all, people who haven't voted yet and haven't decided what they want to do, and so forth.

Anything else is a complete waste of energy and, in the long run, will only cost you a beloved friend or family member, and it is not worth it.

For the record, I will close by saying this:  My right-wing, proudly gun-nut friend Robby, God bless him, called me up when he knew I was upset about this.  He said that he knew that I was NOT close-minded, and that the dirty little secret was this:  "We're out of power and we're pissed off about it.  We want back in control, so some people attack others in arguments because they really don't have anything meaningful to say.  In your case, they're not as well informed as you are, and they know it, and it pisses 'em off sometimes.  Now, I'll argue guns with you all day long because that's my area of strength, but I won't argue other things.  Still, I don't listen to talk radio any more because it bothers me, how extreme the talk has gotten in some ways.  I worry about the safety of the president.  I don't agree with a lot of what he's done, but I would never wish any harm on him, and I think everybody needs to chill out.  There is no need for a lot of the rhetoric I hear on these radio shows, and I won't listen to it."

If conservatives like Robby can be run off  by this closed loop, to some extent, then there are others who might not just turn off talk-radio, but turn off the Party altogether, and cross over to the Independent column. 

They might be willing to listen.

And that's a start.


 

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Comments

    • 4/29/2010 3:07 PM Regina wrote:
      Some truths are just too painful to bear. But bear them we must. So thank you for forcing me to give up any futile illusion that things really were not as bad as they seemed and instead to look for the means to bear them and to go on.
      Reply to this
      1. 4/29/2010 3:50 PM Deanie Mills wrote:

        No, no, no my friend, that was not the intention of my piece and I'm so sorry that was your takeaway.  In fact, I wish I'd thought to add that this LOOP is growing increasingly smaller--this is the very reason that a full 40% of the electorate is now registered Independents--it is because they are fleeing the Republican party in droves.

        And as far as FOX news being the highest-rated of the networks, blah-blah, well, first of all, Rupert Murdoch owns a controlling interest in the Nielson company, which is a whole other subject, but aside from that, when you're talking two million viewers, that sounds like so many until you think about the fact that there are way more than 300,000,000 people in this country!  So what they think of as a HUGE echo chamber is not, after all, all that large, which is why they are continually surprised by poll numbers on issues such as Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

        I believe that it is generational, as the Tea Party numbers attest, and that the demographics are very much on the Democratic side, so don't despair, my friend.  Seriously.
        Reply to this
    • 4/29/2010 4:45 PM Morgan Pardee wrote:
      I agree with Deanie. The Tea Baggers would like you to think they are on the cutting edge of a political movement, and because politicians are reacting to their threats come election time, this affirms that delusion. What has mystified me is HOW they became so disconnected from reality. Epistemic closure is the best explanation I've heard yet. And now that we understand this, we can begin to deal with it -- or avoid it. If it can be proved with empirical data that these people have been, in essence, brainwashed by FOX and talk radio into believing they are the ONLY news source to be trusted, then it may be time the Consumer & Governmental Affairs branch of the Federal Communications Commission step in with a few "public service" announcements educating people. Maybe something like "Give a hoot ... don't pollute the airways." I'm being silly, I know. But it's my one unbelievable thing I chose to believe in today. People do change.
      Reply to this
      1. 4/29/2010 5:07 PM Deanie Mills wrote:
        Well you've got a point, only I think the FCC needs to step in on the fact that FOX news, over the past several years, has been documented at more than *300* cases of fund-raising for GOP candidates, not to mention the fact that numerous of their on-air personalities, such as Sarah Palin, Dick Morris, and Mike Huckabee, have PACs, which receive donations from FOX viewers; plus, they have openly advocated for Tea Parties, as  Media Matters documents.

        When my husband was making the point that MSNBC is similar to FOX, I stated that neither Keith Olbermann, Rachel Maddow, or Chris Matthews have PACs or are running or planning to run, for political office, nor do they fund-raise for candidates or political causes.  At no time, when the streets were filled with hundreds of thousands of people protesting the Iraq war, did MSNBC raise funds or encourage attendance or dedicate entire days to coverage of those events.  Nor do they invite on only Democratic candidates during political campaign seasons and enable them to raise funds while on their networks.  Neither did they ever state a purpose to completely block the Bush administration at everything it ever tried to do, as a stated goal of its broadcast.

        HOW is this NEWS?


        Reply to this
    • 4/29/2010 8:30 PM Regina wrote:
      Thanks for the encouragement, and I am encouraged by all that you say as it applies on a national level. However, I, like Constance McMillan, live in good ole Mississippi where the mindset of the majority population is in lockstep with FOX news. Just walk into any doctor's office, restaurant or department store that has a television set and all you'll see is FOX news 24-7. Just this week, the state legislature's adjournment was delayed because Republican state legislators insisted on passage of a law preventing the use of government funds for abortions under the healthcare reform act!!!! Aside from the fact that this was covered ad nauseam during the heathcare reform debate, the State of Mississippi itself, already has a law that covers this situation! Perfect example of epistemic closure.
      Reply to this
      1. 4/30/2010 8:38 AM Deanie Mills wrote:
        Well, I can certainly relate to that.  My husband says everywhere he travels in the Southwest, motel lobbies and restaurant TVs are set to FOX news, but you know, you can request that they change the channel!  Just step up and ask.  Not everybody even WANTS to watch the news, much less FOX news.  Have 'em change it to ESPN or something that even guys will tolerate.  You'd be surprised.

        But you do make a good point.  Talking Points Memo has mentioned the disturbing trend among a number of red-state statehouses of passing laws banning the micro-chipping of American citizens, because the epistemic closure echo-chamber has them convinced that microchips were a part of the health care reform package when, of course, they were not.  So we're all covered on that, right?

        And they do cover Draconian abortion laws, as well.

        However, many times these idiot state laws come up against the courts and turn out to be unconstitutional, my friend.  National organizations such as ACLU or Southern Poverty Law Center or just the plain old U.S. Justice Dept. keeps an eye out for laws that infringe on civil rights and challenge them in court--which is going to happen in Arizona BUT QUICK with their crappy anti-immigration laws.

        But I do get your point.  When you are stuck in a very conservative red state, as both you and I are, then you are trapped in the echo-chamber of idiot state houses passing laws based on this kind of ignorance.  The best thing WE can do, is fight to turn our states purple and even blue, eventually, through local elections.  It may sound crazy girl but it's happening in Texas as we speak.
        Reply to this
    • 4/30/2010 10:50 AM Nigel wrote:
      >>> "EPISTEMIC CLOSURE."<<<

      Epitemology:- Branch of philosophy that deals with knowledge.

      So, this closure is doing away with knowledge? Or, is it using part of someone's knowledge to try and persuade people to a particular point of view?? You colonials should use plain English.


      >>>Have 'em change it to ESPN<<<

      What's wrong with the good old BBC? Nah, they're considered left wing. How about reading The Independent then? I know it's English but the name says it all.
      Reply to this
      1. 4/30/2010 11:10 AM Deanie Mills wrote:
        The closure has to do with shutting out any and all knowledge not in line with the message that has been pre-approved and stamping it "suspect" or to otherwise be feared, disdained, or otherwise avoided.

        Actually, as far as networks are concerned, I find most conservatives and progressives/liberals to be in agreement that BBC America is a good compromise news channel; however, approaching a small Mississippi town doctor's office and asking them to change the channel from FOX news to BBC America would be iffy at best. <g>
        Reply to this
    • 5/1/2010 6:41 AM Nigel wrote:
      >>>The closure has to do with shutting out any and all knowledge not in line with the message <<<

      That's usual for polly-tic(ians) over here.

      >>>however, approaching a small Mississippi town doctor's office and asking them to change the channel from FOX news to BBC America would be iffy at best.<<<

      I'll wager they'd do it for me, you know, with my wonderful accent and all.
      Reply to this
      1. 5/1/2010 10:56 AM Deanie Mills wrote:

        <I'll wager they'd do it for me, you know, with my wonderful accent and all. >

        Are you kidding?  I daresay they'd fall in love straightaway! <ggg>
        Reply to this
    • 5/24/2010 7:34 PM Tim H wrote:
      I spoke with an open-minded Republican yesterday. It was very refreshing.
      Sadly, my experience with in-laws has been very similar to yours. They don't come out and say it, but they think it. Of course, at a large family gathering I did make the rather unfortunate comment that Republicans were a bunch of idiots. (I too am an independent, not a Democrat.)
      Reply to this
      1. 5/24/2010 10:05 PM Deanie Mills wrote:
        LOL!  I am well familiar with the temptation to blurt out such thoughts!  What I love, though, is when my husband does it.  He's 6'4" tall, and the kind of man, in cowboy hat and boots, who says very little.  He's a livestock nutritionist and wildlife conservationist and spends most of his time with very conservative Texans and others in ag industries in the Southwest.  Most of the time he doesn't say anything and they just assume he agrees with them.  They have no idea he's a strong Obama supporter.  Then all of a sudden he will blurt out something that, really, you just can't argue with, and they will sorta goggle at him, you know, and nobody will argue, right?

        I just love those moments. ;-D
        Reply to this
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